host intro

Hey, how's it going? It's John from John Steele Consulting. And I  wanted to welcome you to the first of a series of interviews that we're doing in our Funnel Vision series. So we are launching a series of videos tied to our Funnel Vision newsletter. And I know some of you may be familiar with Funnel Vision. It comes out every two weeks and in it we talk about everything, integrations, automation and AI, anything marketing technology wise that we think can help startups and founders grow their businesses. And so we put it out every two weeks and it sort of gives you an in-depth. integration or workflow that you can implement at your company and usually they are mostly no code. We try our best to make them as no code as possible. You know, we just think that they're a great way to help you sort of level the playing field, increase growth, do more with your technology stack. And so we wanted to launch a series of videos to sort of dive into those topics a little bit further. We're to be talking to some founders and some marketers about their experience with some of these tools and integrations, how they're finding the current landscape, how they're dealing with AI, how they're dealing with a rapidly changing market and sort of what they think are some solutions to making growth and work better for people in our community. So I'm really excited to have Josh today. Josh Mamroud is an old friend we've been.

We've been pals for a long time and he runs document, which is a great app ⁓ PDF generator allows you to automate pretty much anything you'd want to put into a PDF. So invoices or reports or anything like that. I recently built a tool on it that I'm going to be releasing soon that sort of automates reporting and allows you to take form data and just build reports off of it immediately. And so I'm really excited to talk to him.

about a number of things, but I wanted to talk to him most of all because he recently left HubSpot. So he was a HubSpot partner for a really long time. And I actually helped him out with some customizations that he wanted to make there. He built an integration with HubSpot for his company, but he recently decided for document that they wanted to go in a different direction. And I wanted to get into his reasoning for that and how he sees the current moment as far as AI and as far

as the world for founders and app developers and sort of how all of that played into his decision to walk away from HubSpot. Obviously changing CRMs is no small decision, as many of you may know, anybody who's replatformed or done anything like that knows there's a lot that goes into it. And so I think he's going to have a lot to tell us about his experience there and what he's seen within HubSpot and with other platforms in the space that made him think it was a good time to depart. So I'm very excited to talk to him and I hope you'll enjoy this conversation as well.

interview

John Steele (00:05)
Hey Josh, how's it going?

Josh (00:07)
Good job. How you doing?

John Steele (00:09)
Good, good. Thanks for joining today. so I'm excited to talk to you and I was really, you know, excited to kick off this interview series with you because I know we had done some work together on HubSpot and, I had heard that you were planning on, leaving HubSpot or you'd already left HubSpot. and I was hoping that, you know, you could tell us a little bit about that. Obviously I do a ⁓ good deal of HubSpot consulting and, a lot of my

clients are HubSpot users. So I think a lot of folks would be interested in why you guys chose to go a different direction. So can you start out just by telling me what drove that decision for you and when you made the decision to go and then what led into that?

Josh (00:42)
Yeah, let's talk about it.

Yeah, sure. So, you know, I think this has been kind of a long time, something that's been a long time coming.

We were having some challenges with HubSpot pretty much since the beginning. know, as a CMS, it was great, you know, getting our website in there. We tried a few different options before that. let me back up a little bit. So we were using, we still actually are using it as a CMS, a CRM, support chat, and, you know, our messaging system, email messaging system. And, you know, it was working for us for a while, but, you know, we kept running into these roadblocks and then

John Steele (01:25)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:32)
you know, trying to shoehorn our use case into what HubSpot comes with out of the box, right? So we don't, we're not an account-based marketing company, like that's not our strategy for ⁓ acquiring new business. You know, our average ticket sale is too small to justify that. We're more product-led growth. And so we were mainly using HubSpot for the email marketing, for the CMS, and for the support chat. And, you know, we found that, you know, we wanted,

We tried everything. We really wanted to stay with HubSpot and make it work. We didn't want to have to go through the whole process of migrating out of it. big time. mean, that's four of our systems right there inside of one platform. so it's not an easy decision, but we kind of just kept feeling the pressure of our prices kept going up. We kept having to pay for more marketing contacts.

John Steele (02:08)
Yeah, it's a big shift.

Josh (02:25)
just to be able to broadcast to our users so we would have to really stay on top of making sure that we have a curated list of people that we want to communicate with or pay more to HubSpot and it's not cheap to upgrade, at least for us, we're a startup. ⁓ so there was that and then the CMS cost, we got a discount early on and that discount was going away and the price was increasing and they're changing.

John Steele (02:39)
Right.

Josh (02:50)
their pricing model HubSpot and we, know, was just like kind of waves crashing out of beats. Like it kept hitting us and then, you know, before you know it, we're paying two grand a month and we're just not getting that much in value out of HubSpot. And I'm sure it works great for, it does work great for a lot of companies, but for us, it just wasn't meeting our needs. And so we took a hard look at what we needed and decided that we didn't know which direction we were going at, but we knew that we needed to get out of HubSpot.

John Steele (03:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So before you decided to leave, you mentioned that you had tried some things to hold onto it. So can you talk about some of the impactful customizations or integrations that you were utilizing before and how you figured out, updating this, customizing it isn't going to work for our needs.

Josh (03:36)
Yeah, it's a good question. you know, I don't think we're alone in this, but, you know, we kept trying to, what we really needed access to was custom objects and we just couldn't find a plan that was affordable for us, that justified that expense. we, you know, I forget what the prices are now. And they kept changing their plans over time. And it seemed like this thing that we needed kept getting further away from us. And so, you know,

John Steele (03:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (04:05)
To try to work around that, started creating a bunch of, we tried to use deals for something that they're not meant for, created tons of custom properties and just kept layering that on and trying to find what did we have that we could kind of repurpose for what we needed.

John Steele (04:13)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Josh (04:27)
You you helped us with a lot of things and we were getting close and you know, I'm sure we could have gotten to something that, you know, technically would have checked the box, but it just, you know, the further down the road we got with it, you know, the more became clear that this is just not for us. Like we're trying to use this system for something that it's not designed to do. And if we, you know, if we tried to get it to do like, if we tried to, we have to pay a lot more to get it to work the way that we wanted to. Yeah.

John Steele (04:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. Can

you mention, and that's obviously the most common mark against HubSpot, I think, is the big gap between their plans and sort of how big of a financial outlay can be when you just need to jump up for a few features. You mentioned custom objects. you talk for people who might not know about custom objects and what they sort of do for you within HubSpot and why they were so necessary for you?

Josh (05:13)
Yeah, HubSpot has, talking about the CRM component of HubSpot specifically, they have three main ⁓ entities, if you will. You have contacts, you have companies, and you have deals. And so for a lot of B2C companies, that is perfect. That's what they want, right? They have their leads coming in and a lead that gets to a certain stage.

that becomes an opportunity. And then you start working that opportunity, maybe you decide to a salesperson and, and custom objects allow you to extend that functionality. So, you know, instead of just being limited to those three, and I think there's more now, I think they have leads as an object and, you know, they have, ⁓ quotes and line items and a few others. and so, but for our needs, you know, we needed more than that.

And HubSpot allows you to do that with something called custom objects. So instead of just being limited to those three main standard object types, what HubSpot calls objects, you know, you can think of it as almost like a table in Excel. They allow you to create your own and define, you know, what it's called, the properties that are in there. And then you can kind of shape it to meet your needs and do exactly what you want. And then you get the power of all of their automations. You know, there's some restrictions and I think they're working on improving that all the time.

kind of making custom objects first class citizens in the way that the standard objects are. But that's essentially what it just allows you to customize more of the CRM to meet your business requirements.

John Steele (06:39)
Yeah, and if you think about how many of the features are sort of tied to ⁓ those standard objects that you mentioned. So, you know, so many of the things you can do with it are sort of segmented and siloed by those objects. And so, yeah, if you have more customized needs, I can see where that would be an issue for you guys. you obviously then had to go through...

sort of a vendor shopping process where you sort of had to start looking around for different platforms and sort of weigh them against each other, sort of look at the features, look at pricing, all of that stuff. How was that process for you guys? How did you sort of tackle that and sort of what were the sort of must haves that you guys were looking for? You don't have to give away all your secret sauce, but I mean, if you could just tell us a little bit about your process to finding a new CRM and what features you sort of were looking

for and then what one sort of like surprised you that you know sort of like I didn't know that was available but that's kind of a newer thing that we weren't seeing before.

Josh (07:36)
Yeah, great question. So I would say, you know, first we took a look at where does HubSpot work for us? You know, we're we already we had a kind of a wish list of things that we wanted over time with HubSpot. You know, I wish you could do this. I wish you could do this. So it wasn't too hard once we started going looking for a new CRM to to put that list of requirements together. And it really came down to, you know, what do we like about HubSpot and what don't we like about HubSpot? You HubSpot.

has a lot of, again, I think if we were a different type of business, then a lot of their features that they're designed, it's designed for those types of business and we're a SaaS trying to shoehorn this CRM into our needs. And so, I felt like we were paying for a lot of things that we weren't using and that was on us.

John Steele (08:14)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (08:23)
When we started looking for another CRM, was like, okay, what do we really need? Like we want something that stays out of our way, that allows us the flexibility to create what we need to, like the stuff that we want to keep track of and how we want to manage these accounts and these users and these companies and our subscriptions and the plans and allows us to market to communicate with our users in a way that we want to. And so, you we started just seeing who are the big players.

John Steele (08:35)
and

Josh (08:50)
You know, this is not my first time looking at, I did a whole analysis like this when I chose HubSpot and, you know, I got kind of sucked into their starter plan, which I think a lot of people do. ⁓ But then, you know, so I started just seeing what's new on the market. I'd been hearing about Adio for a while, you know, they'd been making a lot of noise and, you know, people seem to be really excited about that. And it's working for a lot of other SaaS companies, you know, started using AI to see, okay, you know.

John Steele (09:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh (09:16)
to fill in the gaps and kind of let me know what's new out there. And I would put in obviously my list of requirements and then I just go through and if it made sense, I got to a certain point with a service to the website, it looks really good. And I think this is the process for most people. What they're advertising on the website, that makes sense that I think will meet our needs, sign up for a free account.

John Steele (09:39)
Right.

Josh (09:42)
start testing it, really start kind of seeing where the limits are, where the boundaries are, you you got to make sure you're on the right plan that you're expecting to be on and you're not getting access to these features that are going to cost you more than you were anticipating to pay. Look at the pricing model. So, you know, it really came down to a lot of different factors and, you know, spreadsheet helped for that and to keep it all, keep track of it all and do the comparison. And, you know, at the time we thought we were going to be moving into ADEO. And so, you know, yeah.

John Steele (09:53)
Right.

So did your engineers sort of weigh in on this? I you guys have a pretty tight-knit engineering team, I know. And I mean, obviously, you're part of that engineering team. But I was wondering if some of your engineers who helped build your current system, if they sort of helped make the decision, or if they weighed in on any of the back-end implications of any of this?

Josh (10:33)
Probably not as much as they should have. ⁓ I should have brought them into the process a little bit more, but they were already super busy with what they were working on. And this is more of a marketing and sales function. we had different plans for, I'd like to go into what we ended up going with, but we were kind of developing a way to not really need as many developer resources to get this up and running and keep it in sync with our database.

John Steele (10:36)
Sure.

No, yeah, that makes sense.

Josh (10:59)
And so that really alleviated a lot of the engineering burden that would have been placed on them. But from a technical perspective, if there's stuff where we would want to extend even more, start tapping into the API of the system, I felt like because I'm also involved in the engineering side of things that I was probably able to.

answered the business questions that we would have had for them. yeah, short answer is no. We didn't really involve them as much as we should have.

John Steele (11:31)
Yeah.

So I wanted to ask you about a fear that I think a lot of people have about re-platforming and something that I run into with my clients a lot is, you I always try and work within like kind of the way you guys did where you try and, you know, mend it, don't end it. And then when you come to a, you know, sort of an impasse and you can't move past it, then it's time to move to something else. So I know a lot of folks that look at re-platforming have a fear of sort of revenue impact and sort of the onboarding, offboarding process.

So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how, do you anticipate any sort of revenue impact positive or negative from this? You're obviously hoping that the long term will be positive, right? But are you anticipating any sort of like lull or gap or anything like that that you're gonna have to contend with? And then sort of, what's your process for making sure you have a smooth transition here?

Josh (12:27)
Yeah, maybe, you know, there's a little bit, you know, where there's going to be less communicate, there's going to be, you know, a few new accounts that fall through the cracks in making the transition. But for the most part, you know, I think it's going to be it's going to be positive. The biggest cost was time. It's not money. It's just or like lost opportunity. It's just the time that we put into moving like kind of.

peeling ourselves away from HubSpot and then moving over to a new system. But I think, you know, we just, we hit so many walls with HubSpot that it was, we've known for a while that it's not a question of if, when. And, you know, we'd been really wanting to kind of overhaul our marketing strategy and our marketing efforts and button things down a lot and, or button them up and.

So, you know, it's like, okay, do we invest this time into HubSpot or do we just kind of bite the bullet, cut the cord and move over to something else? And we decided to go with the latter because it.

trying to think of like one reason was just, uh, we didn't think that the, the, would be that much of a negative impact. Like we just kind of said, okay, we're going to commit this quarter to doing this and get it over with. And then, you know, the rest of we're going to be kind of a smooth sailing after that. And, uh, took a bit longer than a quarter, but, um, but you know, it all things said it's pretty, pretty smooth. We're not, we're not a hundred percent live, uh, and off of HubSpot yet, but.

John Steele (13:38)
Mm-hmm.

you

Josh (13:55)
We're just about there.

John Steele (13:58)
Okay, cool, so we've talked a lot about what went into your decision to leave HubSpot and sort of what you were looking for when you left. Can you talk a little bit about what you ended up settling on? I think you mentioned that you are going with no CRM at all and sort of ⁓ what are you replacing with and sort of how do you see that working better for you guys?

Josh (14:17)
Yeah, so I don't know if I mentioned this at the beginning or if you mentioned it, but we're a SaaS application, a document automation SaaS application. so because we're a product-led growth and self-serve model, meaning it's expected that the users will guide themselves through the platform, we took a look at like, we kind of took a step back and said, okay, as we were trying to implement Adio,

which is probably a little bit late in the process, but we kind of found ourselves asking because Adio doesn't have a built-in email communication module to it, right? So any communicate, any mass or automated email communications that you want to do, they point you towards this service called, like the recommended service is customer IO. And so we started looking at the customer IO.

John Steele (14:48)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (15:14)
And we met with them and they're like, yeah, we're not a replacement for a CRM, but this is what we do. And as I started getting more into it and trying to up the integration with the customer, I own setting up the integration with Adio. You know, I was looking at it like, what the heck are we doing with, like Adio is just becoming almost like a copy of our database. And for what purpose? Like we're not, nothing's coming at, it's just becoming like a, archive of what's going on. And we didn't need that, you know? And so,

John Steele (15:38)
Mmm.

Josh (15:42)
We had a few conversations internally and we said, you know, let's be honest here. we, you we might need a CRM in the future, but I don't think we need one right now. And so we decided to say no to the CRM. know, which is very weird for me because I, you know, I come from a place, my previous job was at a kitchen remodeling company, my family's business, and they're all in on HubSpot and, you know, they're very much.

you know, account based marketing, if you will, or, you know, B2C and using the heck out of opportunities and their deals. And so, you know, it's very weird to kind of go no CRM, but I think this is going to work for us because, you know, all we really need is the ⁓ communication portion of it. And customer IO does that really well.

John Steele (16:10)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (16:28)
and then some. if we want, can send in-app notifications. That's another thing that we're looking for. We can send transactional emails, which is what we were doing with SendGrid. And we were trying to create this custom internal system for doing that, for building those emails, maintaining them. But at Custom RIO, I've got to give them credit. have a beautiful template designer for transactional emails and dynamic emails. It's super nice. We're taking a lot of inspiration from that for our new template designer.

John Steele (16:47)
Hmm.

Josh (16:54)
So, and then also I mentioned earlier that, you know, taking the burden off of development, the way that we were able to do that was by implementing post hog. And they're like a analytics slash data pipeline tool and a lot of other things. But it's a really awesome platform and very super affordable. And so what we've been doing is we just push all of our events.

from our application into PostHog. And then we can kind of broadcast those out to the other systems that we work with. you know, our application integrates very tightly with PostHog. And that's where we push all of the events to. And then from there, PostHog is going to be pushing that out to customer I.O. and then, know, customer I.O. will do its own thing. And it's, you know, super powerful with its workflows and with its segmenting.

John Steele (17:28)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (17:43)
like lists in HubSpot and has a bunch of other features.

John Steele (17:47)
customer IO where you're seeing the lists and segmenting? ⁓ yeah.

Yeah, I think a lot of people think about the automation integration component, you know, with HubSpot and you mentioned that it was running four systems for you in one place. But what you're describing here is sort of a decentralized system or centralized, I guess, around more of a database structure. And, you know, that's kind of a popular trend right now. I think we're seeing, you know,

both HubSpot and Salesforce have lost a significant number of customers, significant number of, obviously they're still huge in the market, but both of their stock prices have gone down significantly and you're seeing even some enterprise customers move away from these bigger CRMs to sort of build something more custom. So can you talk about the database at the center of this? You mentioned, I mean, you guys have a database for all of your customers now and you're sort of, that's the data store.

for all of this and you're pulling out of that through post-hug to sort of process and then into customer IO to do more of the marketing automation side?

Josh (18:50)
Yeah, so rather than, we have our application database, which is a MongoDB, and that's what stores all of our accounts, our users, templates, documents, everything that is part of the application. But then, you have to make a decision. you want to kind of all these platforms that you need, right? For like the sales and marketing side of things or the revenue operation side of things.

John Steele (18:57)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh (19:15)
Do you want to build out custom integrations with all those tools? ⁓ Or do you want to delegate that to something else? And that's what we're using PostTog for. So we make sure that we have a tight integration. All of the events that happen or the important events that we want to be aware of get pushed to get tracked in PostTog. And then from PostTog, we get analytics out of it. And then also on top of that, we can

connect to any other type of application and then push that data out to that application as we need it. So, post hogs connected to customer IO, it's connected to Slack, we're getting Slack notifications out of there. It's basically now become almost our hub, to be, for lack of a better word, but that is our true hub and it's much easier to get data in and out of post hog than to try to use.

John Steele (19:56)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Josh (20:09)
It's not like a CRM or a CMS that, mean, HubSpot was originally built as a marketing platform, but it doesn't quite function in this way. we're also, I think I just touched on it, but we're using HubSpot Postdoc now for all of our analytics. that's including the in-app analytics that are happening, so our product analytics and also our marketing analytics. the analytics that, the website analytics, everything that you get from HubSpot, we're now doing with Postdoc.

John Steele (20:30)
Okay.

Josh (20:36)
at a fraction of the price and with more capabilities. It's not a CRM, that's not what it's designed to do, but it will integrate seamlessly with whatever CRM you plan to use. They have pre-made integrations and then also you can build your own integrations and run your data pipelines through post-hoc. for us, it's been an amazing tool. And we also have log-in, so in error tracking. we have...

So whenever there's ⁓ issues in our application, all that information is also in post-hoc and we can associate it with the users that it happened to and the accounts that it happened to and the same thing with the error tracking. We have recordings of the screens and you we can see all the information that surrounds those errors that are happening. That's just one piece of it. for us, it is much more closely aligned with our needs.

John Steele (21:25)
Yeah. So whenever I'm building a system like this and sort of trying to combine different things into a workflow, I'm always cognizant of who's going to be using it on the other end. you know, it sounds like this is, you know, the setup at least is, is more code intensive. There's not, you know, as much, ⁓ no code involved here. ⁓ will the utilization of this platform be, I mean, will you be able to use marketers that are not as tech savvy, in the future, if you were to, you know, hire someone on or.

Josh (21:44)
Yeah.

John Steele (21:53)
someone sort of run your marketing for you, would they be able to move through this system? And sort of how have you like set that up so that they can sort of use it?

Josh (22:03)
Yeah, absolutely. Because the development side of the work is just on the integration between our application and post-hoc. Once it's in post-hoc, now it is kind of no code to an extent. You can extend that or you can write code in post-hoc and have it running in post-hoc if you need to. But the bulk of the development work has already been done in making sure our application's integrated with post-hoc. And from there...

John Steele (22:11)
Hmm.

Josh (22:26)
marketers or whoever else needs access to that information can hook into those events through the postdoc UI and send that data where it needs to go if it's not already set up that way, take some kind of action as a result of that, or run reports. Now, the whole team has access to real data. ⁓ We don't have to run MongoDB queries or use Atlas to have these charts built out.

John Steele (22:37)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Josh (22:52)
⁓ We can get all that information out of postdocs. So really it's empowered them more than anything.

John Steele (22:53)
Right.

Yeah, that's interesting. you know, it's really a best of breed strategy where, you know, I'm sure if you were to add different applications to your stack, you know, that would probably be easier to do. You're not beholden to, you know, HubSpot just adding it or, you know, messaging them and saying, hey, can you add this feature, you know, something like that. I know we've all done that with HubSpot in the past. So that's an interesting wrinkle to this. So, you know,

I've avoided asking this for this long, but it is like the hypiest thing out there right now. So I wanna ask about the AI of it all. So I'm sure when you were doing vendor comparisons and looking into different things and making this decision, AI had to weigh on that for you guys. What would you say is...

Josh (23:30)
Mm-hmm.

John Steele (23:42)
AIs role within a system like this? Do you think that these tools should be playing with it and examining it and do you think it can fit into a CRM type workflow or what have you seen with AI that did that weigh into this decision for you guys at all, anything like that? I'm just curious as to how you saw that.

Josh (24:03)
Yeah, no,

it's a good question. you know, the short honest answer is not really, you know, we might be kind of the exception here, but, know, where we're going to be getting our analytics and our data is going to be from post-hog and they have kind of all the tools necessary for that. They even have tools for if you have your own LLMs and you want to run analytics on that and ⁓ have numbers on it. you know,

John Steele (24:08)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Josh (24:28)
It's there when we need it. just haven't gotten to that point yet. still kind of just wrapping up that, this has been kind of something that the post hog integration has been something that's been happening for maybe like the last six months. And yeah, I mean, we haven't really considered much in the way of AI, but you know, I'm sure it's gonna come in at some point. Just, know, probably helping us to.

John Steele (24:39)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (24:55)
make better sense of the numbers and the analytics that Post. has, but from the CRM perspective, not really. Maybe we might do some custom messaging with AI in the future or figure, like use it to a better A-B test, but that would be more in customer IO and customer IO is not a CRM. But it's, yeah, we haven't gotten that far yet.

John Steele (24:58)
and

So I know a lot of companies in our space are sort of looking to bring AI into their companies more. Have you guys integrated any of that into your workflow? Are your engineers using Cursor, for example, or something along those lines? I mean, how have you sort of brought it into your day-to-day as far as your company's concerned?

Josh (25:35)
Yeah, ⁓ so this is kind of a recent development, but ⁓ we've been using Cursor for a while. We've been using all the different models and trying to keep tabs on which ones doing best at the time and just jumping around in different ones. And we'll use it here and there, but we recently brought in an engineer and he's very much up to date on what's going on in the industry.

John Steele (25:43)
Thank you.

Josh (25:59)
We used to use Cloud back in the day and then we switched over to a few different ones and he's like, you got to check out Opus 4.6, it's something else. And so I started using it, Cloud Code, and I've genuinely impressed, it is insane. So we've now switched over to that. He's also using Codex and we have AI running like a co-pilot in GitHub for code reviews and stuff like that.

John Steele (26:20)
Hmm.

Josh (26:23)
So, you know, it's a good, you know, it's a good addition. It's not really replacing too much of the work that we're doing, but it's definitely, you know, nice to have it there. It saves us a ton of time in doing like more tedious mundane things or to kind of flesh ideas out with and, you know, ask high level architectural questions or, but ⁓ yeah, I mean, I would say that we use it most in the engineering, on the engineering team. You know, we also use it to help us, you know, craft emails and.

John Steele (26:36)
and

and

Josh (26:50)
to come up with strategies for our marketing team and to help with churn and to help with conversion rates. But ⁓ we use different models for that. Gemini has been really good from my experience. So it's kind of sprinkled there, but we're mostly still using it as a chatbot.

the new engineer that we just hired, he's very much into like, you know, setting up MCPs and making the most out of that. so, you know, we're probably going to be using those more with post-hoc to, like I said, make better sense of the data or to...

to, yeah, that was kind of the only thing that we're working on working on with it at the moment. Yeah.

John Steele (27:33)
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

We looked into PostTog to be featured on the Funnel Vision newsletter and definitely going to be doing work with it soon because I was checking out some of their AI tools as well. And it's really interesting what you can do and how they handle integration with other tools there. yeah, definitely one that we should keep an eye on. So ⁓ cool, really, really interesting. Yeah, big shout out to PostTog. So we'll definitely ⁓ post some links to the different tools that Josh

Josh (27:39)
⁓ yeah.

Yeah, big shout out to PostOak.

John Steele (28:00)
is mentioned here so that you guys can go and check them out. I wanted to ask one final question that I'm gonna start to ask to all of our interview subjects with this series. So tell us one workflow automation integration or tool that you can't live without.

Josh (28:16)
Like for my personal work or for the company?

John Steele (28:17)
Yeah,

for your for the company, I guess.

Josh (28:20)
for the company.

Yeah, I I've been kind of tooting their horn this whole time, but PostHoc has been amazing. I really can't say enough good things about their support is super responsive. you just, you know, they'll proactively reach out to you if they see an error or something. And we're not a big customer for them. You know, we're not really, you know, I didn't think that we're on their map at all, but, and then, know, I reported a bug once with something, you know, it ended up being our fault, but, you know, they got right back to us and...

just like you could see that they're really moving very quickly and they understand kind of their user base and what they're looking for. And if it wasn't post-doc, would say quad code as Opus 4.6 has been just really like super impressive, just next level. You can see where they've really raised the bar. I find myself trusting it for coding stuff, for engineering development stuff.

way more than I've trusted any other model. So those I guess would be my top two.

John Steele (29:24)
Awesome. Well hey Josh, thanks again for doing this. I really appreciate your time and for your candor about your strategy for bringing this new system to life. And we'll definitely check in in the future and see how it's going. But I really appreciate you taking the time today.

Josh (29:38)
Yeah, it's my pleasure. It's great talking with you and happy to hop on another call and give you an update.

John Steele (29:43)
Excellent. Talk soon. Thanks.

Josh (29:45)
All right, thanks, John.